Curse

valence · Jan 26, 2008, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mirt

When the warrior shadow steps: hit magebane, bye bye spike.

you just lost to a good shove spike

Paddatoochie · Jan 27, 2008, 07:09 AM // 07:09

They could change Spirit bond so that it triggers if you are dealt 6o+ damage by more than one skill/spell..

Not sure if it would make it unbalanced but yeah. Would help against this spike I think.

Shendaar · Jan 27, 2008, 10:10 AM // 10:10

Shove Spike is retarded yes, but it's not that hard to beat once you figure it out. It is the kind of build that you sort of have to spec against it, but all the counters are actually useful against everything you will play against anyway. We ran several different build and all of them have been able to deal with it. All you need is a reliable way to snare/KD in your build, both of which are very common anyway.

We position ourselves so they can't Dash away behind a wall, ball up and kd/snare/train a monk after their spike. We usually go after the RC monk all the time once we find out who it is. So long as you actually have some damage in the build, you should have little problem taking them out.

The Seventh Seeker · Jan 27, 2008, 05:01 PM // 17:01

I hate this Monk spike. As for i always manage to get pwned by it.

zwitterion · Jan 28, 2008, 04:22 PM // 16:22

This is a genuine question so don't think i'm just trolling or being self indulgent; but what's the problem with a build working against a large number of teams? I've heard it said many times by unsentimental pvpers in many different games that there's no such thing as a 'cheap' strat, only an effective one. So when people throw phrases like "it's just a stupid gimmick" and "i hate that i have to change to deal with this" around I start to wonder cos I thought making a team that could beat anything that gets thrown at it was the point of the game.

I've thought of a bunch of answers to this just from writing it down but I'm curious as to what you all think. From the looks of the thread this isn't even a tremendously unbeatable build anyway so maybe it's not the best example - but in general, do you believe in classifying strats as 'gimmicky' and 'kosher'?

moko · Jan 28, 2008, 05:03 PM // 17:03

the annoying thing about this is the hit and run that takes little to no skill at all while still being effective.

D8tura · Jan 28, 2008, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

I've run, I hate it. Its slow, it's boreing. Spike then RUNAWAY until everything is recharged. I won't run it anymore simply because I can wins twice as fast running something else, alot of the match last 5 - 8 mins because of the length between spikes.

Ran into someone the other day and we told them it was a nice copy build and they said they invented it. Then I asked them if they knew why it was called "Gothspike" and they shut up.

instead of running wouldn't assasin's promise make all the skills recharge and save the running around?

Tab · Jan 28, 2008, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by D8tura

instead of running wouldn't assasin's promise make all the skills recharge and save the running around?

The entire point of the build is they get a single kill then run about untill times up.

Killed u man · Jan 28, 2008, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibreaktoilets

The entire point of the build is they get a single kill then run about untill times up.

Which is why It needs to be nerfed. There is no point in such a build, but waste time of people. Ow wait, Anet forgot about TA :s

Tab · Jan 28, 2008, 06:03 PM // 18:03

If anything, just change one of the packets of damage on Stonesoul so that it's going to trigger SB at a decent spec, and lower the other to total the same damage as now.

Shendaar · Jan 28, 2008, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Yeah, simply making Holy Strike and its clone a single packet damage would actually make the spike protable. Right now the only prot thats works decently against it would be Shielding hands and Supportive spirit(I guess you could call it a prot?). But who the hell runs that really?

valence · Jan 28, 2008, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwitterion

This is a genuine question so don't think i'm just trolling or being self indulgent; but what's the problem with a build working against a large number of teams? I've heard it said many times by unsentimental pvpers in many different games that there's no such thing as a 'cheap' strat, only an effective one. So when people throw phrases like "it's just a stupid gimmick" and "i hate that i have to change to deal with this" around I start to wonder cos I thought making a team that could beat anything that gets thrown at it was the point of the game.

I've thought of a bunch of answers to this just from writing it down but I'm curious as to what you all think. From the looks of the thread this isn't even a tremendously unbeatable build anyway so maybe it's not the best example - but in general, do you believe in classifying strats as 'gimmicky' and 'kosher'?

The build is very very strong in a competent group, that there are hardly any competent groups running it is something else (and when you lose with it, you know you are doing stuff wrong, epically). You need a good snare to catch any of the 4, and the maps are always in favor of the spikers.

Even if you have a snare, they have either double hex removal or divert hexes, making it quite hard as well. Running after them gives you problems as well, out of range of the monk or your ranger cant interrupt due to obstructed. Ofcourse you can wait and group up, but then any pressure you might had, is gone and the game just restarts literally, tho in favor for the spikers.

If your snare is cripple, you have to get rid of rc or you wont force any kill, again interrupting a 3/4 (this time you wont be near the target tho) is not reliable. You need to trail the person with draw condition (usually woh) and dshot the rc, otherwise stuff wont drop and they dash away.

There is not one build at the moment in ta, that is commonly run and can reliable win from a good shove team. Just sit and wait till they jump in, chase them and hope they somewhere make a mistake is the only thing you can do.

You are right, the build is good. Hence the reason why good players say it is easy to beat (couse most good ta players dont like to run it). Is this however the build you want to be good? it exploits every bad thing in ta to be good.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shendaar

Yeah, simply making Holy Strike and its clone a single packet damage would actually make the spike protable. Right now the only prot thats works decently against it would be Shielding hands and Supportive spirit(I guess you could call it a prot?). But who the hell runs that really?

Shielding Hands is quite good in ta vs. lots of pressure builds. The monk bar is already quite full tho.

sage tank · Jan 28, 2008, 10:33 PM // 22:33

look, this build is not overpowered at all, and it sickens me that crappy teams copied this build from us (Gothway ftw) and beaten crappier teams with it. When we run monk spike and we fight against monk spikes we never lose, you know why? because even with same build, the crappy team will lose. beside, if you really hate this build, bring a Woh monk with balanced stance, aura of stability, and infuse, or even better, use ride the lightning spikes with 4 copies of ward againist stability. Because this build is extremely easy to infuse, (btw, for those idiots says that person still dies after an infuse, please double click the infuse because the follow up of the spike is just as powerful as the first pack of damage, the spike does around 1k damage + DW)

If you really hate this build, run it, then you'll find weakness in it. If you never run a build and just keep complaining about the skill and wait for nerf, you'll never beat it.

P.S. if you see someone with tag [Goth], please don't ever say the word gimmick, the build was made from [Goth], and people does not appreciate being blamed using wiki build or running gimmicks when they are the one that created this build.

Sun Fired Blank · Jan 28, 2008, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Do you even play the build, and do you even play the same arenas as we do?

The build is virtually impossible to screw up, has a dominant geometric advantage on almost every map in the TA rotation, is virtually impossible to prot, and autowins versus a number of builds that would otherwise be viable. How is that not overpowered? WoH and Infuse? Ride the Lightning and Ward of Stability? Are you serious? Those are not solutions.

Don't pride yourself on being the inventor and namesake of the most griefish and frustrating gimmick in TA. You're right; blaming you for creating something that effectively pushes the boundaries of the format and inevitably would have come to fruition is perhaps not entirely fair, but you bear that weight nonetheless.

Sab · Jan 29, 2008, 02:00 AM // 02:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by sage tank

look, this build is not overpowered at all, and it sickens me that crappy teams copied this build from us (Gothway ftw) and beaten crappier teams with it. When we run monk spike and we fight against monk spikes we never lose, you know why? because even with same build, the crappy team will lose. beside, if you really hate this build, bring a Woh monk with balanced stance, aura of stability, and infuse, or even better, use ride the lightning spikes with 4 copies of ward againist stability. Because this build is extremely easy to infuse, (btw, for those idiots says that person still dies after an infuse, please double click the infuse because the follow up of the spike is just as powerful as the first pack of damage, the spike does around 1k damage + DW)

If you really hate this build, run it, then you'll find weakness in it. If you never run a build and just keep complaining about the skill and wait for nerf, you'll never beat it.

P.S. if you see someone with tag [Goth], please don't ever say the word gimmick, the build was made from [Goth], and people does not appreciate being blamed using wiki build or running gimmicks when they are the one that created this build.

Build Warzzzz

sage tank · Jan 29, 2008, 02:49 AM // 02:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

Do you even play the build, and do you even play the same arenas as we do?

The build is virtually impossible to screw up, has a dominant geometric advantage on almost every map in the TA rotation, is virtually impossible to prot, and autowins versus a number of builds that would otherwise be viable. How is that not overpowered? WoH and Infuse? Ride the Lightning and Ward of Stability? Are you serious? Those are not solutions.

Don't pride yourself on being the inventor and namesake of the most griefish and frustrating gimmick in TA. You're right; blaming you for creating something that effectively pushes the boundaries of the format and inevitably would have come to fruition is perhaps not entirely fair, but you bear that weight nonetheless.

Do I play this BUILD? DO I play in the same arena as you do? I hope you are not joking because I have ran this build for over 3 months already. I know the weakness and the strength of this build out the front and back. I'll list them to you now.

#1 - interrupt the KD, sig of humility is useless, war has grapple, actually, if you just interrupt one spiker, the spike will fail unless the target has DP.
#2 - we will lose to 2 RaO thumpers with a hexer behind them if they never stop attacking,
#3 - grasping was kuraoong is gay, just stand together, have ur rit drop the thing when smoke poofs and use ancestor rage, then u got solid window of opportunity to kill them
#4 - spike every 30 second is asking for pwnage againist ANY OTHER FORM OF SPIKES. a good ride the lighting spike group rapes the build, a good rit spike group rapes the build. Heck, even 3 life stealing ranger spiker will pwn us. It may be on the edge against most balance groups, monk spike fails most time against any other forms of spikes.
#5 - its not monk spiker team's fault that no one brings infuse.
#6 - like the genius who said in above posts, RC indeed is the weakest link in the chain, if he falls behind the team, its likely that you can force a 4 on 4 fight on ground to kill the monks
#7 - most of the time, balth pendulum has been poping up alot lately, i think it is because of us.

In my opinion, the build is anti - balance, but it gets owned by spikes.

I'm not proud of inventing this build because I did not invent this, goth's leader came up with this build. But I just hate when people lose, they just blame it on wiki or gimmicky. why don't they run it if its a good build. I'm pretty confident that when I run monk spike with my guildies we'll rape the hell out of anyone who uses the same build (have done that so many times lately because this got posted on wiki by some idiots).

valence · Jan 29, 2008, 03:13 AM // 03:13

how could we forget.. we just have to bring infuse !

Mr Emu · Jan 29, 2008, 03:41 AM // 03:41

running sineptitude on frozen isle beats blockway, so blockway is fine amirite?

Sun Fired Blank · Jan 29, 2008, 05:26 AM // 05:26

I am not joking.

In my opinion, half your advice is generic and uninspired rehash of earlier advice that frankly contributes nothing. The other half is advising people to lock themselves into specific builds and mediocre skills options for the sake of building out gothspike. That is not defensible advice.

To be frank, I completely embrace the notion of playing something that works, even if it abuses the format constraints and skill mechanics. Everything that we play in any format does exactly that: hexway, gothspike, lameway, balanced, you name it. If A defeats B and everyone runs B, then you run A, no? But I'd say that is a rather deplorable state of affairs if the game is nothing more than rock - paper - scissors and silver bullet solutions. TA has quickly reached an unprecedented lame threshold, and gothspike is one of the builds that I think quite thoroughly illustrates the format's disrepair.

Shendaar · Jan 29, 2008, 05:40 AM // 05:40

TA will always be a rock/paper/scissor arena. With only 4 players available, you cannot prepare against everything, nobody can. A team that owned you could easily lose to a team you have beaten. Player skill still plays an important role, but the build will always have a major impact as well.

People said the same thing when HA was 6v6(not enough skill slots to bring counters, blah blah). Well TA is just worse and there isn't much that anyone can do about it.

Shove spike can be countered fairly easily with obvious, useful and available counters. Still, I do think that it should be "nerfed" simply because the core idea behind the build is retarded. Hit and run is simply not entertaining and it is a huge waste of time.